This $4 plate of liang pi noodles (“cold skin noodles”) single-handedly made up for all the bad Chinese food I have eaten in the past eight months.
First, a tangent. I spent eight months living and working in San Francisco. Apologies in advance to those in the Bay Area, but really, it seemed impossible to find great Chinese food there. Decent? Yes. Good? Occasionally. Downright atrocious? Far too common.
With such a big Chinese population, San Francisco should theoretically have Chinese food to rival Vancouver and New York. But what I found was mostly watered-down cooking, and too many restaurants advertising themselves as Chinese-Thai-Vietnamese-Sushi (what’s up with that?) And yes, I also visited the purely Chinese restaurants, and quite popular ones at that.
A trusted friend who was a native San Franciscan brought me to his favorite dim sum spot in Chinatown which supposedly had the best har gow in the city; everything was overly greasy, including the signature dish. Over Chinese New Year, I went with relatives (who are originally from Hong Kong) to a popular dim sum spot on Geary Boulevard in the Outer Richmond; it was the best in the area, but still left us all craving food that is less heavy-handed. I also tried a few other spots in the Richmond and Inner Sunset, but soon gave up and retreated to the trusted cocoon of Mexican restaurants for casual meals.
Why is Chinese food in San Francisco so disappointing? I posed this question to too many people in the past few months. I expected to called insane for refuting this popular idea that SF is a haven for all foods Asian, an idea that has been pounded into us by magazine article after magazine article. Surprisingly, and fortunately, most had similar thoughts.
A roommate in SF, who has traveled extensively through Asia, said, “It’s not just Chinese food. I can’t stomach the Thai food here. Everything is so bland.” A psych professor from Hong Kong who I met at a party agreed with my (possibly controversial) theory. “Look at Vancouver and New York. Almost all the restaurant owners and chefs are recent immigrants. In San Francisco, most of them have been here for generations. Over time, you either adapt your cooking to local palates, or just forget what food in the home country is like.”
(This is not to say that all Asian food in SF is bad. Japanese is good, Burmese is excellent, and this particular Cambodian restaurant still makes me sigh with happiness.)
In short, it is much easier to slack on the authenticity if all your competitors are doing the same. (Also, feel free to correct me, San Franciscans.) I fully admit to not being a local (although many of the people I talked to were), so I may have missed that wonderful little hole-in-the-wall on the edge of town that required a car or five bus transfers to get to. But in the end, most of the popular Chinese, Thai, and Indian restaurants I have tried in San Francisco made me wish I were in New York, L.A., or even Boston. So I am back in New York, and making up for lost time.
In my absence, Xi’an Famous Foods opened (in three locations, nonetheless) and developed a huge following. If there had been a place for good Shaanxi-style food when I last lived in New York in ’07, I must have missed it. Back then, we had great Cantonese, Shanghainese, Fujianese, Sichuan, Hunan, and even a few Dongbei restaurants. Now, with the addition of Shaanxi and Yunnan restaurants, New York is becoming as diverse as Beijing for Chinese food. (With no recycled cooking oil controversy to boot.)
So, that was a long meandering way of saying it’s good to be home.
It’s good to be able to hop on a subway, head to Flushing, and brush up on Mandarin. It’s good to sit down with a juicy cumin lamb “burger” and chewy liang pi (wide mung bean) noodles with tofu, doused with mild chili sauce so good you want to lick the plate. It’s good that the cook’s idea of “mild” will still make you gulp down a 16 oz. bottle of water.
And it’s good that only an hour later, you can be on the N train crossing over the Manhattan Bridge, watching the sunset and wondering whether you could still live anywhere else.
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Xian Famous Foods
Golden Shopping Mall
41-28 Main Street, Basement #36
Flushing, NY
Flushing Mall
133-31 39th Ave. #FC-10
Flushing, NY
88 East Broadway #106
New York, NY
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You gotta come down to Los Angeles (specifically San Gabriel Valley) if you want the best Chinese food in the U.S. =)
It’s a bit unfair to claim that San Francisco has disappointing Chinese food. San Francisco is still home to many recently arrived immigrants.
Personally, I’ve been to New York and have been disappointed with the relative absence of Vietnamese food and found the Chinese food in Manhattan to be expensive and Americanized. It was only until I got to Flushing that I found food more to my liking.
However, I agree that Chinese food quality in San Francisco in recent years has declined. Most Chinese restaurants in San Francisco are patroned mostly non-Chinese customers, so some of the food is Americanized.
I feel like many Chinese immigrants tend to move out of the city and into the suburbs, so the demand for authentic Chinese food is higher in the suburbs and met there. So the best Chinese restaurants tend to be around the surrounding cities around San Francisco, particularly in the East Bay, where it is not only better but cheaper.
So try Chinese food around San Francisco if you get the chance! :)
Having lived in SF the past 6 years, I would say that SF has a lack of choices with various Chinese cuisines. My favorite dim sum place in SF is also Hong Kong Lounge but besides that, there’s not much else. If this was LA, I’d have a handful of restaurants of similar quality or better to choose from. It has been quite difficult to find quality Cantonese food in the Bay Area that’s comparable to LA or Vancouver.
To echo a previous poster, I do suspect that there’s better Chinese food in the suburbs of the Bay Area, similar to LA’s Chinatown (disappointing) versus the San Gabriel Valley. This also applies to SF itself, where the better quality Chinese food is in the Sunset and Richmond districts, rather than Chinatown.
If you ever find yourself back in SF, I’d highly recommend these places:
Shanghai House – 38th & Clement
Kingdom of Dumpling – 27th & Taraval – the owner also owns a shop where they crank out handmade dumplings all day
Old Mandarin Islamic – 42nd & Vicente
Speaking of hole in the wall joints, I think Lahore Karahi on O’Farrell and Leavenworth might fit the bill Indian-wise.
Keep in mind that SF proper is like a tenth the size of NYC, too. Millbrae, Fremont, and Cupertino are where the real action is, as Jen alludes above.
While I agree with your overall point that SF doesn’t manage to punch its weight, I think there are still some solid places within the city limits. Did you try any of these?
Hakka Restaurant (just opened, so you probably didn’t have a chance to go)
Panda Country Kitchen (Sichuan)
Beijing Restaurant (Excelsior)
Five Happiness (Taiwanese, 6th and Geary)
Utopia Cafe (Cantonese)
I can only conclude that those who can’t find good Chinese food in San Francisco are not looking very hard. I recently ate a fantastic meal at Z&Y in Chinatown, owned by the chef who used to cook for the Chinese consulate. The restaurant offers great Sichuan food if you know which dishes to order. Bund Shanghai across the street is also very good. Also in Chinatown the Vietnamese Chinese restaurant San Sun is great for noodle dishes, many that you won’t find elsewhere. It’s all a matter of knowing where to go…
I’ve was born and raised in San Francisco and couldn’t agree more with the lack of choices of good chinese restaurants. Having been back and forth from China, London and San Francisco. San Francisco seems to offer little in comparaison. I find myself craving a good Chinese meal. Even London offers better cantanese food. Yes, there are the occasional good restaurants but they are just too few.
I just spent a week in San Fran and also found it to be disappointing. I always heard that they aren’t comparable to NY, Toronto and Vancouver. I didn’t know they were lacking that much. I expected more from them too since most of the earliest immigrants went to San Fran.
I am glad I get to have pretty decent Chinese food in NYC within a 10 minute walk all the time.
So true…I live in Berkeley and there is a dearth of good Chinese restaurants in the area.
Did you try Jai Yun?
See review and pictures on UrbanSpoon.
L.A. is definitely my second favorite city in the US for food. So due for a trip there soon…
Jen – I agree with you about the Vietnamese food here. That and good Mexican food is what New York seriously lacks. Although Flushing is great for Chinese food, there are still a good number of places in Manhattan that do the trick, especially around the outskirts of Chinatown.
What makes food exploration in SF so hard, I think, is lack of any adequate public transportation. Taking the BART to the East Bay is a major trek, even worse than going from my part of Brooklyn to Flushing on the weekends.And there are still large swaths with Oakland, etc. that are inaccessible via BART.
Sigh. The next time I go back I may stay in Berkeley and work my way around the East Bay.
Patrick – Thanks for your recs. Yeah, I was pretty disappointed that Hong Kong Lounge was the best dim sum that SF offered. I definitely need to tackle the East Bay on another trip.
Adam – A Hakka restaurant! I am putting this at the top of my list for next time.
Amy – Thanks for pointing out a few more choices. I had been looking for a good xiao long bao place for months.
There are, of course, hidden gems everywhere (for example, Charlottesville and Richmond, VA having had two of the best Sichuan spots in the country.) However, I was making the point that the quality of Chinese food in general in SF didn’t really live up to its general reputation. National newspapers and magazine always make a big deal about Chinatown, and local publications point to this-and-this place in the Sunset and Richmond neighborhoods. However, in my conversations with both locals and travelers, most have agreed that the Chinese food in SF proper can’t compare to Chinese food in other major US cities. Had I gone into my 6-7 months of living there with no preconceived notions, I probably would have thought there were plenty of decent places to eat. SF is still one of the better cities for Chinese food in the US, but certainly not one of the best.
I agree that there isn’t much good chinese food in chinatown but if you go outside of the chinatown you can still find some pretty good chinese food. My favorite spots are restaurants nearby SFO – Millbrae. Give it another try next time when you are in SF bay area :)
Hi Diane, wish I knew you were in SF, I have tried a few good Chinese, Thai, Burmese and S’pore restos there! Best dim sum, hands down is Yank Sing, Rincon Center opp. Ferry Bldg. Expensive but truly well prepared and top notch. Everyone I’ve sent raves about it. It’s true, New Chinatown has more choice. Marnee Thai on Irving was outstanding, not usual generic. Tiny dishes but oh so gooood. It is tough if you don’t have a local Asian person who knows.
not far south from SF, in Cupertino and Milpitas, is where the good Chinese food migrated to. one of the (few) perks of living in the south bay.
It’s around Balboa and 46th, though – quite a trek if you are trying to avoid long Muni rides. :)
Like you, I am carless and it’s a huge pain in the ass for trying the most authentic places. There was this Dongbei restaurant called Little Potato in Union City that I kept meaning to try, but by the time I worked up the energy to schlep down there on BART it had closed. Cupertino is completely inaccessible, and some of the best Thai and Lao places in Oakland and Richmond require a mastery of the AC transit bus system that I am far too lazy to acquire. But feel free to drop me an email if you’re back in the area and want to hit Asian Pearl in Millbrae for dim sum – have heard it’s excellent!
*one other thought: I kind of wonder if SF’s age has doomed it to restaurant mediocrity in general. Back in the day, I suspect, there weren’t enough diehard foodies around the city to demand really good ethnic cuisines, but there were enough recent immigrants and general demand for more restaurants to make at least opening an ethnic restaurant viable. But only just enough – the immigrant community wasn’t quite big or densely populated enough to support new restaurants all by itself. The upshot of this was that you had strong pressure on restaurateurs to be everything to everybody and do nothing well. That’s why you have all these old-school places doing bizarre combinations of cuisines like American diners with pho and hu tieu (Americana Grill), or Indian food + pizza (Zante Pizza).
Hi Diane
There’s actually some pretty good Mexican food in Sunset Park and along Roosevelt Ave in Queens. Have you explored any of that? Comments about bad Mexican food in NYC seem to refer to Manhattan.
Growing up in the Bay Area, I have found that over time the better Chinese restaurants have moved out of SF into the East Bay, South Bay and LA. My theory is that more affluent Chinese now live in those areas, rather than SF proper now. The restaurants, or the chefs, have followed.
San Jose, Cupertino, and Milpitas have fantastic Chinese food. Even Daly City, just south of SF has some of the better dimsum restaurants (Koi Palace, at least, last time I went).
LA area has the cities of Alhambra and Monterey Park, meccas of great Cantonese cuisine and home of one of my favorite xiao long bao houses, Din Tai Fung.
You have to check Yelp for reviews. Few restaurants do more than one or two dishes well, even the popular ones. The dining experience is very different depending on what you order. For example, I don’t know anyone in the Sunset that does not like deep fried sand-dab from Szechuan Taste – Parkside – San Francisco, CA. Or the crab from PPQ. Or the shrimp dumplings from Cheung Hing.
I agree with the previous post. Most of the better frequented Chinese restaurants have moved out towards San Mateo, Millbrae, Alameda, etc. At some of those restaurants, you can order a larger range of dishes and be pleasantly surprised at the quality.
I’ve tried only one restaurant in Chinatown in LA and it was awful. I’ve tried many restaurants in Hong Kong, and several were not nearly as good as the restaurants in SF. I have yet to try restaurants in NY or Boston.
I moved to
Auckland, New Zealand, it’s a huge Chinatown, the best Chinese food you’ve ever had – from all over China, Singapore, Hong Kong, Taiwan too unbelievable… Yum Char, Dim Sum etc.
Before I had Chinese food in Seattle, San Diego, LA, etc. but nothing comes close. The American Chinese food is all fakey and very sweet, like candy.
(I’m not Chinese by the way).
I agree that both Flushing and the San Gabriel Valley are epicenters for great Chinese food in America. I don’t know how long you stayed in the Bay Area, but I would also put Cupertino/Milpitas area in Silicon Valley up there, possibly as #3.
You really have to look at the history of Chinese in America. San Francisco is definitely an older generation of Chinese than the recently arrived immigrants, but if you look at Chinatown in both Manhattan and in LA, they serve the overly greasy Chinese food that similar Chinatown places in SF serve. Most “newer” immigrants arrive legally, attached to a career or an education, and didn’t arrive like the generations that arrived to San Francisco via Angel Island did (i.e the populations of suburban San Gabrial Valley and Flushing, way out in Queens) So there’s that. Newer generation, newer thoughts on food, newer styles of cuisine and cooking.
In terms of SF, you really just have to find the type of cuisine that you enjoy. I am more a Northern/Beijing/Taiwanese style Chinese food fan, and there are amazing places in the Outer Sunset, and around Oceanview and Balboa Park, that serve some of the best hand pulled noodles, home made dumplings, beef pancakes, and Chinese Muslim dishes I’ve ever had.
So glad to find your blog!
I lived in San Francisco for 18 years, and though I also feel that most Chinese restaurants are over-rated, there are a few that locals discover and love.
First of all, the best dimsum is actually in Oakland’s Chinatown, not on San Francisco’s Clement Street, despite the reputation of Clement Street. Secondly, the best Chinese food is not necessarily in Chinatown, despite its reputation.
My favorite is a place called Taiwan, out in the Avenues on Geary. Family style and authentic. There is also a vegetarian restaurant called 1000 Buddhas just south of Nob Hill.
I left in 2002, but would bet you can still find these places. So if you pass through the Golden City, check these out.
May I suggest the China Village in Berkeley ?
It’s about Sichuan food and really good for what I tasted (amazing boiled-fish and fried eggplant).
I spent few weeks in China and to me, it can be really comparable.
jules
May I suggest the China Village in Berkeley ?
It’s about Sichuan food and really good for what I tasted (amazing boiled-fish and fried eggplant).
I spent few weeks in China and to me, it can be really comparable.
jules
My Chinese relatives and I have had the same disappointing experience with Chinese food in SF, and they have lived in the area for over 30 years. Maybe they’ve lost track of where the good places are, but more likely I think the statement that the diaspora have adapted to the local palate may be valid.
Having had the opportunity to compare SF, LA, NYC and Toronto many, many times, Toronto wins hands down for the best Chinese food. A myriad of excellent regional cuisines have sprouted in the past decade thanks to more immigration from the mainland, while the Cantonese mainstay continues to thrive.
This is not to say there aren’t good options in and around NYC and other cities. I haven’t been to Flushing but have heard good things about the Chinese food there. Vancouver as well. So keep the recommendations coming.
Jen, I think you hit the nail on the head. Metropolitan Chinatowns and big cities in general are not where the best Chinese food is at. This applies to L.A. (San Gabriel is where it’s at), Vancouver (Richmond), New York (Flushing) and San Francisco (the South Bay, especially Mountain View or Saratoga).
It’s probably a combination of mostly tourists patronizing the in-city restaurants, ‘white flight’ where Chinese immigrants followed the middle class to the suburbs and just plain capitalism.
When there are already 3,000 good Chinese restaurants in Alhambra, you better know what you’re doing if you’re planning to open a new one.
Toronto is great, but I’d still give my vote to LA/San Gabriel Valley as having the best chinese food . The San Gabriel Valley is just too varied in depth and variety. It also has the benefits of great california produce that really bring out the strong vibrant flavors that makes the cuisine so great. Flushing is growing, but the state of Chinese food in NYC could still be a lot better.
The Chinese food in West Coast and East Coast are indeed different but in all still very good. Just see it different style of cooking. If someone to ask me I would say it different not bad at all.
I have met some people who can’t tell the different regions where it came from so it is to them just Chinese food.
With San Francisco, I heard the best chinese food is closer to San Jose than in SF. I was satisfied with some of the cantonese restaurants in SF, but if you want chinese food from so many regions of China and done in a very competitive restaurant scene, then you have to go to LA and try the San Gabriel Valley.
The scene in flushing in NYC is much more discreet and less explosive, but it’s having many Northeastern chinese restaurants opening up that you should try. Even if northeastern chinese food may not be as popular or as respected as other regions of china.
Near Berkeley is China Village on Solano Ave. It’s pretty good for Sichuan food. And also on Solano there is a Chinese/Korean place, Kirin Cuisine of Northern China, that makes a really tasty and refreshing take on gan-bie-sijidou. Both places are pretty satisfying. Great China on Kittredge St., right next to Cal, is also pretty decent. If you like liang-zhang-pi, their’s is pretty legit. These are the best places for Chinese grub in/near Berkeley (not covering Oakland, I’m not as familiar with the grub there other than Spices 3)
post-recommendations please!
What is that delicious sandwich in the photo?
It’s a lamb burger with cumin and onions. And yes, quite delicious!
My first memories and formative years were in Southeast Asia, and every summer we traveled and ate the plethora of “Chinese” food in Hong Kong, Penang, KL, Macau, Taiwan, not to mention the local foods of Chinese origin offered a kid growing up in Singapore and Vietnam with such large Chinese communities–only got burgers on visits home to visit the A&W near my grandparents home in Spokane. We moved to San Francisco after Asia, and I’ve worked in Northeast and Southeast Asia on and off since the 1990s. So, I think I have the background to say, “San Francisco has no good Chinese–WHAT?”
There are number of GREAT “Chinese” restaurants in the San Francisco Bay Area. But, you mentioned Chinatown, which should be a red flag to anyone coming to San Francisco: Chinese only eat in Chinatown when they don’t know the good places–it’s one of the worst places to eat “Chinese” food. It’s a tourist trap. Clement St. and Irving St. in San Francisco are the real Chinatowns for local Chinese communities. Also, SF Chinatown is mainly Cantonese. If you wanted Mandarin cooking, you need to get down to Milpitas. Are you interested in chicken and meat, or seafood? You just want noodles or Shanghai dumplings? The really good, and authentic, “Chinese” restaurants specialize.
That also brings us to why I find it’s hard for me to say, “Chinese” restaurants, when the label should be “Fukkien”, “Hakka”, “Shanghai”, “Cantonese”, “Szechuan”, “Mandarin” cooking–and let’s not forget how they’ve been modified, depending on where the restaurant owner/chef originally came from, an area of China, or Malaysia, Indonesia, etc.?
If you want really good “Chinese” food, let me know what style exactly, and I can make a few suggestions.
Now, I wish I could find a really good Korean, or Malay restaurant worth its salt in this town…! ;)
Hi Diana,
I’m wondering if you’ve ever come across a recipe for Li Piang cold skin noodles pictured above here. I had some from Xi’an Famous Foods the other day and they were delicious. Problem is I live in Connecticut, so it’s a bit of a commute just for noodles. Any suggestions?
Thanks,
Matt
Matt – After doing some searching, I came across this page for making the preparing the noodles and making the sauce. (You would probably still need to buy wide flat rice noodles in a Chinese grocery store, since making the noodles by hand seems to be pretty challenging.) If you try it ou, let me know how it goes!
http://www.hellonanjing.net/iluv-nanjing/nanjing-public-blogs/entry/food-a-drink/dinner-and-a-movie-liang-pi-like-revenge-a-dish-best-served-cold
Thanks for this Diana. You’re the best! I found this NYT story from awhile back (I remember when it originally came out) about all the great eats in Flushing. There’s a short video of a man actually making the noodles here (in the Shi Hong mall): http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2008/07/29/dining/20080730_FLUSHING_INTERACTIVE.html
I’m going to fool around with some ratios of water and flour, and see if I can replicate them.
I agree with Jen. There is an unfortunate tendency to Americanize food for tourists and others who do not realize how different other parts of the world can be. Chinatown, overrun with tourists, caters to them because they are the income (I find this to be true of many of the other stores as well – I had to dig to find places that were authentic and not selling touristy stuff). I remember one time that my dad and I stumbled across an Indonesian restaurant in New York. We were very familiar with this type of food and ordered our favorite meal. To our astonishment, ALL the food was bland, including ones that were usually spicy. The waiter noticed our faces and called up the manager. He told us that when Americans came in, they would often complain about the strong flavors of various dishes and so he toned them down for repeat business. He also said that if he had known, he would have had them prepared to original recipes for us (something his regulars who were familiar with the cuisine would arrange for).
New York, Vancouver, LA, Boston? I’ve been in those cities and eaten the Chinese food there. I live in San Francisco. Frankly, I don’t see much difference between the quality of Chinese food in any of those places. Your article just isn’t my experience. Maybe it’s just one’s particular taste or preferences?
I grew up in the San Gabriel Valley, live in manhattan, and visit SF often.
Hands down, SGV wins for quality of food, choice and atmosphere.
Flushing is OK but come on!! The place is a dump and depressing! Cramped, dirty, just sad… Despite the food. I lived there for 4 yrs so I can say this.
Manhattan and SF are on par— disappointing Chinese food, just terrible. I refuse to eat Chinese food most of the time in NYC unless I’m in SGV or Taiwan basically. Xian foods is pretty awesome tho.